ommm [5] : okay,
let me open up by saying THANK YOU
[Block Leader] drisco63 [2269] : u
want to see me do a flip
mogrit [5] : so forces
of nature are also a persona option! i love that!
ommm [5] : to all
the avatars here this afternoon
ommm [5] : we are
going to discuss an issue today
ommm [5] : that affects
all avatars
ommm [5] : and all
world citizens who log on
ommm [5] : we are
going to talk about the significance and design
ommm [5] : of cyberspace
ommm [5] : our plan
today is to have two presentations by author
ommm [5] : and then
to have a panel discussion
ommm [5] : i will
first make a few statements and then
ommm [5] : introduce
Margaret Wertheim (mogrit)
ommm [5] : who is
going to tell us more about the ideas in her book
ommm [5] : to begin
let me state a few things
ommm [5] : that will
begin the theme of my weird talk
ommm [5] : that i
will save
ommm [5] : until
after Margaret has presented
ommm [5] : then i
will introduce our panel members
ommm [5] : how does
that sound?
din11111 [5] : very
goood
tmama [97] : applause!
cuzminnie [20] : Go
for it ommm
mogrit [5] : sounds
fine to me. are all the panel here now?
DaVinci3 [55] : How
do we know who's talking?
ommm [5] : Soul Space?
ommm [5] : A friend
visited the Norton Simon art museum
ommm [5] : and he
brought a postcard back from the gift shop.
ommm [5] : He placed
the postcard next to my computer screen
ommm [5] : which
showed accd world in ActiveWorlds.
ommm [5] : The similarity
was striking.
ommm [5] : What painting
was reproduced on the postcard?
ommm [5] : It was
"Circles" by Wassily Kandinsky.
ommm [5] : "Concerning
the Spiritual in Art".
ommm [5] : Kandinsky
wrote a book in 1912 with the title
ommm [5] : While
I do not like the word "spiritual,"
ommm [5] : there
is something important in the connection.
ommm [5] : What is
the look and feel of c-space?
ommm [5] : Can we
hope to see soul in c-space?
ommm [5] : Having
said that, I'd like now to introduce
ommm [5] : the author
of a very good book
ommm [5] : which
we read carefully this semester
ommm [5] : "The Pearly
Gates of Cyberspace"
ommm [5] : BTW, you
can find a link to obtain this book
ommm [5] : by going
to this world's website at
ommm [5] : www.mheim.com/av99
tmama [97] : applause!
whistle!
CRS [15] : clap clap
cuzminnie [20] : Shameless
promotion-- keep it up!
Lumen [5] : hear
hear!
ommm [5] : lol
ommm [5] : go ahead
mogrit
tmama [97] : yeah!
mogrit [5] : hi everyone,
i'm the spotty alien in the center of the platform now can you all see me?
din11111 [5] : I
see you
Lumen [5] : wow!
mjson [5] : yep
tmama [97] : yes
DaVinci3 [55] : Thank
you for telling us.
ommm [5] : the purple
goes well the color scheme
mogrit [5] : OK well
i've been writing about cyberspace and the tendancy to see it as a new space
for the "soul"
mogrit [5] : lots
of people ahve been presenting cyberspace as a new realm of spirit or soul.
what do they mean by this
mogrit [5] : why
is this ghappening at all?
mogrit [5] : my thesis
is that this is not something new at all, but part of long traditions in western
culture
mogrit [5] : no society's
dreams take place in a vaccum.
mogrit [5] : to understand
the impulse behind this spiritualizing of cyberspace
mogrit [5] : we need
to look at the historical context
mogrit [5] : there
is a long history in the westenr world of linking technology and religion
mogrit [5] : the
scientific revolution was in part inspired by the belief
mogrit [5] : this
was the dream behind Francis Bacon's New Atlantis and Thomas More's famous Utopia
mogrit [5] : that
with science and technology we could create a better, more virtuous chirstian
society
mogrit [5] : throughout
modern history this essetially Christian utopian vision of technology has endured
mogrit [5] : cyberspace
is just the latest to technology onot which people have proejctec utopian dreams
of a better world
mogrit [5] : bu there
is more to this than just utopianism.
mogrit [5] : one
of the consiequences of the new cyber-spirituality is the emergence of something
that i call the cyber-soul, or the idea od a digital soul
mogrit [5] : there's
a widespread view emerging that man is a bipolar being with a moratl material
body and an immortal immaterial essence that can be downloaded into cyberspace
mogrit [5] : people
- serious people - are increasingly saying that the self can be separted from
the body and downloaded into silicon where it can then love forever
mogrit [5] : this
is essentially the reemergence of a Chrisrian concept of an immortal soul, but
now made over in a digital mode
mogrit [5] : what
interests me about this is the ways in which technology keeps being used to
reinfuse essentially religious dreams with new life and new meaning
mogrit [5] : the
problem is that the new cyber-soul has no moral or ethical context
mogrit [5] : in chritsianity
one had to earn eternity in paradise by being vituous in physical life
mogrit [5] : in cyberspace
its just a mettr of having access to the right technology.
mogrit [5] : presuming
of course that it is even possible - which is something i seriously question
digigardener [10] : hello
all
tmama [97] : we have
a momentary pause while our speaker returns
tmama [97] : she's
almost back...
tmama [97] : she's
coming up the steps...
Lumen [5] : thanks
tmama! good job as mc
tmama [97] : and
heeeeer'es mogrit!
ommm [5] : okay we're
with you mogrit
ommm [5] : uploading
your soul?
mogrit [5] : ok i
think i'm back
mogrit [5] : my "soul"
just decided to leave my body for a higher plane
cuzminnie [20] : Out
of body experience? iSN'T THAT A TAD MYSTICAL?
ommm [5] : hehe
DaVinci3 [55] : No,
an out-of-avatar experience
mogrit [5] : it has
a mind of its own - or rather my avatar does
ommm [5] : haha
mogrit [5] : so the
question becomes very present then, can our souls, spirits, selves, ever truly
leave our bodies for cyberspace?
mogrit [5] : is this
a peurile fantasy?
mogrit [5] : or do
we think it is a real possibility?
mogrit [5] : it seems
to nme that this is not just a technological question, but a philosophical one?
mogrit [5] : what
would it be that "left" your body anyway?
tmama [97] : mogrit
has left her body and is entering Lumen's
creator9 [135] : If
we are made of electo/magnetic impulses, then cyber-soul transfer is conceivable.
Lumen [5] : hi this
is mogrit, i've just taken over lumen's body.
ommm [5] : weird
Lumen [5] : this
is cool - i've just had my first digitaal transmigration of the soul!
ommm [5] : where's
Lumen now?
Lumen [5] : maybe
next time i'll come back as a catepillar?
ommm [5] : hehe
din11111 [5] : hi
is on his way back...
Lumen [5] : so ommm,
do you want to make some remarks now or shall we open up the floor?
tmama [97] : hshe/he's
the big insect thing
ommm [5] : let me
rant a bit first after your flight of thought, mogrit -- errhh Lumen (2)
Lumen [5] : i'll
move about so you can all identify me.
ommm [5] : okay i'm
ommm the Sumo guy
ommm [5] : What look
and feel can reveal soul?
ommm [5] : Today
I suggest we think c-space as a cave.
ommm [5] : VR pioneers
often conceive VR as a CAVE.
ommm [5] : They refer
to Plato's Cave.
ommm [5] : This is
not the cave as soul space.
ommm [5] : Plato's
Cave separates soul from body.
ommm [5] : His Cave
is a dungeon trap for the senses.
ommm [5] : Plato's
Cave is illusionistic space.
ommm [5] : Plato
wants us ultimately to escape the cave.
ommm [5] : He wants
us to free our mind from illusions.
ommm [5] : I'm dreaming
of a different kind of cave.
ommm [5] : In Plato's
Cave the mind is fooled by illusions.
ommm [5] : let me
now sketch what i mean
ommm [5] : i don't
mean "uploading" soul in the sense that mogrit questions
ommm [5] : This cave
can put the soul in cyberspace.
creator9 [135] : It
sounds like being in a world and not being able to pass through a clearly visable
door.
ommm [5] : This cave
appeared long ago in China.
ommm [5] : Taoist
hermits discovered caves in the mountains.
ommm [5] : They decorated
the caves like earthly paradises,
ommm [5] : retreats
where they could explore inner visions.
ommm [5] : These
caverns were labyrinths coiled in the bowels
ommm [5] : of the
earth, miniature worlds.
ommm [5] : The caves
were interconnected and hard to find
ommm [5] : with narrow,
hidden entrances.
ommm [5] : The hermit
caves contained books and talismans,
ommm [5] : and miscellaneous
treasures for life.
ommm [5] : Each cave
had its own sun and moon, its own
ommm [5] : passageways
to the heavens above.
ommm [5] : The caves
belonged to the Dadong Taoists,
ommm [5] : dadong
meaning "Great Void" or "Big Cave."
ommm [5] : The empty
void, its vacant hollowness
ommm [5] : allows
it to be filled with visions.
ommm [5] : we are
today in something like a big void....on our tiny platform
ommm [5] : Caves
are the Great Void, huge holes where the
ommm [5] : When we
are alone and quiet in a dark room,
ommm [5] : psyche
projects itself into flight.
ommm [5] : we are
at first assaulted by images and voices
ommm [5] : pulling
at us from every direction.
ommm [5] : (not unlike
avatar chat)
ommm [5] : Keeping
still long enough, however,
ommm [5] : where
our imagination creates shapes.
ommm [5] : makes
the darkness a receptacle, a cave
ommm [5] : The void
becomes psychic space
ommm [5] : where
we can shape the atmosphere of our
ommm [5] : thoughts
and feelings.
ommm [5] : Cyberspace
today is an open space
ommm [5] : information
flies instantly.
ommm [5] : Here we
have interconnected caverns where
ommm [5] : While
information is the basis of c-space,
ommm [5] : that is
rapidly filling with voices.
ommm [5] : it is
the caverns or hollows of c-space
ommm [5] : that we
need to develop.
[City Guide] Harelin [1269] : hey
ommm [5] : Only such
caves can house imagination.
ommm [5] : Computers
support rapid information exchange.
ommm [5] : But underlying
the Cartesian coordinates
ommm [5] : is a void
of psychic space, a realm of free
ommm [5] : improvisation.
It is where Descartes dreamt
ommm [5] : his dream
of mathematical grid space.
ommm [5] : Descartes'
dream was born in the realm of freedom
ommm [5] : which
is also the realm of art, the infinite
ommm [5] : shaping
of how we imagine what we think.
ommm [5] : To inspire
us to reclaim the mountain caves,
ommm [5] : (we
ommm [5] : (we're
coming to the end...)
ommm [5] : The master
of hollow spaces, Lao-tzu, wrote:
ommm [5] : "Thirty
spokes support a hollow hub to make a wheel.
ommm [5] : This hollow
'nothing' is what makes the wheel work.
ommm [5] : "Sculpt
the clay to make a jar,
ommm [5] : and its
usefulness is the empty hole inside.
ommm [5] : "Doors
and windows shape rooms for the house,
ommm [5] : and the
hollow space is what makes the home liveable."
ommm [5] : We need
to preserve the emptiness of cyberspace.
ommm [5] : vuala!
ommm [5] : enough
cutting-and-pasting
ommm [5] : now let's
round up our panel...
creator9 [135] : Do
you mean being much more intentional and responsible for what is put out there
tmama [97] : applause!!!
ommm [5] : our panelists
ommm [5] : today
include:
ommm [5] : Tobey
Crockett, Cole Case, Nadine Schelbert, and Christina Valentine
tmama [97] : I am
Tobey
din11111 [5] : hi
I am nadine, the blue alien
ommm [5] : can you
please introduce yourself (avatars)
cuzminnie [20] : I
am cole, the six-breated terror
cuzminnie [20] : breasted
ommm [5] : lol
CRS [15] : I am Christina
Valentine, a blue alien with curly horms
tmama [97] : I think
I am the frozen dancing guy
ommm [5] : two blue
alien twins
din11111 [5] : a
sign of our times
[City Architect] MrPhillip [5364] : I
think Dr. Frankenfurter said it best when he said "Don't dream it, Be it"
ommm [5] : so, panelists,
do you have an order for your discussion
tmama [97] : We'll
go in the order you intro'd us
tmama [97] : I will
be brief
[City Architect] MrPhillip [5364] : YOu
can talk about the ease of entry into Cyvberspace, but there is a pretty steep
price to pay actually.
tmama [97] : I find
the 'empty space' to be fascinating
tmama [97] : I think
thta often our ideas are reversed
tmama [97] : cspace
is seen as outside us...
tmama [97] : that
cspace and sould space have a connexion
tmama [97] : but
since I think mogrit/lumen is right
tmama [97] : I must
point out that for me personally
tmama [97] : my soul
is very much inside of myself
tmama [97] : I think
that the spark, the secret sauce, the magic of cpace is ALSO inside us
tmama [97] : and
I will spend more time making that position resonant, but I will turn the mike
over to Dindin
din11111 [5] : I
like the idea of empty space
din11111 [5] : however
I am afraid that out of ecomonic reasons
din11111 [5] : for
long
din11111 [5] : as
for the soul
din11111 [5] : it
is an interesting concept
din11111 [5] : it
will be difficult to maintain or create empty spaces, or even keep them if they
aready exist
din11111 [5] : I
belive that people mainly go into cspace
din11111 [5] : to
escape a reality of everyday
din11111 [5] : I
do not think that it is out of "soul-searchin"
din11111 [5] : but
I can see how the two could be linked
din11111 [5] : over
to Cole
din11111 [5] : almost
in an uncouncious way
cuzminnie [20] : The
points raised by Margaret and Tobey are interesting
cuzminnie [20] : The
implication is that the soul is a separate entity
cuzminnie [20] : Something
liek an "essential self" that has a life beyond our bodies
cuzminnie [20] : It
has been mankind's wish for millenia
cuzminnie [20] : To
exist beyond death, and the methods have been legion:
cuzminnie [20] : The
New Jerusalem o the Christians
cuzminnie [20] : At
the side of Allah for Islam
cuzminnie [20] : And
now, silicon immortality from Bil Gates
cuzminnie [20] : I
think that this is simply the latest ina long Western tradition
qb3 [0] : Eureka!
I made it! Hi Ommm excuse my enthusiasm
cuzminnie [20] : Seeking
an immortal eternal existence
cuzminnie [20] : Personally,
I agree with Tobey that the soul is inside
cuzminnie [20] : It
is inextricably linked TO THE BODY. It has no existence outside that of the
body.
cuzminnie [20] : I
don't believe that any technology can actually create teh Cartesian dualism
that we witness resurfacing
cuzminnie [20] : At
this point late in this century.
cuzminnie [20] : I'll
get off my Materialist soapbox now and hand it over to Christina.
CRS [15] : I must
say I also agree with Toby about the body/soul mix
CRS [15] : I think
shortchange ourselves when we think in finite terms of our understanding of
who/what we are comprised of.
CRS [15] : Reading
MW's book, made me think about how we as society stagnate when we constantly
think that
CRS [15] : whatever
"new" discovery or understanding of US is IT. Rather, shouldn't we think in
more progress-ively?
CRS [15] : Also,
the aspect of naming... to have freedom within the void, do we not limit it
by giving it a name?
CRS [15] : For, like
the taoists, should we not enter into the space on our individual terms, to
discover what is there?
CRS [15] : I think
we can limit ourselves when we go into the void cave and create with the intention
of permanence.
CRS [15] : Much like
the names body and soul. Our society having given ourselves names have limited
us in some ways no?
CRS [15] : While
there needs to be some kind of structure within the space which we seek to engage
in, what is the impact of our steps into this void?
CRS [15] : over and
out for now.
ommm [5] : thank
you, panelists!
ommm [5] : very provocative
Lumen [5] : thanks
one ane all for those insightful thoughts
creator9 [135] : Maybe
cspace is the opposite side of spectrum to man's search for his unique soul,
that consecrated identity. In cspace, we are closer to the bottom line randomness
of subatomic particles. Here, we lose our identity and become the essence of
each other.
Lumen [5] : i think
i should make one thing clear - I (MW) don't believe in a soul separate from
body
Lumen [5] : for me
this has always been a falacy - which as Cole points out is deeply embedded
in western history
Lumen [5] : the questionis,
why does this fantasy prove so enduring?
Lumen [5] : why can't
we, as Christina says, transcend our past? why do we rpeat this pattern?
ommm [5] : could
it be because our "soul" our deepest essence is so hard to find?
Lumen [5] : this
also reaises the question of are there things about western culture in general
which syupport a very dualistic way of seeing human selfhood?
tmama [97] : creator9
raises a good point: the utter mix of self and other..very Buddhist and perhaps
also very realistic.
qb3 [0] : Doesnt
fantasy actually allow us to try and structure our view of the world?
CRS [15] : I am inclined
to think that we repeat our past because (as historically noted) we contantly
think We've come to the
CRS [15] : final
answer of some sort
CRS [15] : When actually,
we are always discovering
ommm [5] : maybe
our soul is an achievement, a search/discovery process
ommm [5] : that's
why c-space is so attractive
cuzminnie [20] : I
think part of the answer might be something more basic
mogrit [5] : i'm
back again - another "soul" crash or ciris of the spirit?
ommm [5] : a glass
in which to project something of our deepest self
TioRama [0] : yes,
omm, and cspace is a new "vale of soul-making"
ommm [5] : welcome
back, mogrit (i luv the spelling)
ommm [5] : exactly
Tio
cuzminnie [20] : Life
can be so sweet, the concept of oblivion(not-life) is terrifying
mogrit [5] : ommm
- mogrit is still lumen
[City Architect] MrPhillip [5364] : One
of our fundamental instincts is to communicate: Cyberspace is just another communication
tool.
ommm [5] : the after-life
is not the same as soul
mogrit [5] : no i'm
now mogrit!
mogrit [5] : can't
keep my own soul in order?
cuzminnie [20] : But
the whole point of soul-existence is to be immortal
ommm [5] : communication
as a design process tries to convey our self
cuzminnie [20] : After
life is destination, soul is means of conveyance
qb3 [0] : energy
is immortal
ommm [5] : or the
self of an organization, its mission, its soul
mogrit [5] : is the
whole point of soul existence to be imortal? or is that just an evasion of repsonsibility
here and now?
tmama [97] : good
point
cuzminnie [20] : mogrit,
elaborate
tmama [97] : cspace
is probably MORE than *just* a communication tool...but it is very powerful
at that as well
qb3 [0] : do we have
a choice or are we simply immortal?
creator9 [135] : Oblivion
is much less of a topic when the creative process contains the destructive as
an intregal part of it.
ommm [5] : immortal
just means trying to get behind the daily turmoil to what matters
mogrit [5] : Christianity
has in fact always insisted that soul is ultimately not something separate from
body - in the final anayalysis
qb3 [0] : then you
can choose to be immortal by ommm's definition
[City Architect] MrPhillip [5364] : Immortal
means to live on after you are dead. Bob Rockwell does this.
ommm [5] : i see
blue alien looking at her watch
mogrit [5] : the
promise of christinaity is that soul and body will be reunited - thats the promise
of resuurection
cuzminnie [20] : Nadine
is always prssed for time
ommm [5] : and it
reminds me that the time for our discussion
tmama [97] : Buddhists
speak of dependent arising:everything is interconnected and interrreflected.
There is no such thing as outside of this construct. there is no there There...
mogrit [5] : the
point of this was to stress the value and necessity of life in the body and
our responisbility as embodied beings here and now
ommm [5] : has come
to an end
ommm [5] : our formal
presentations are now over
din11111 [5] : CRS
is blue too
cuzminnie [20] : That
went WAY too fast!
CRS [15] : I just
came back and am reading as fast as I can
ommm [5] : and i
want to thank Margaret Wertheim
cuzminnie [20] : applause
and bellowing cheers
ommm [5] : and the
panelists for joining me in this round table
qb3 [0] : cheers
cheers
mjson [5] : clap
clap clap
joshu [0] : the sound
of more than one hand clapping
mogrit [5] : ommm
are we finished?
ommm [5] : on the
question "Is Cyberspace Soul Space"
cuzminnie [20] : We'll
need two hours next time Mike
TioRama [0] : bravo!
brava!!
[City Architect] MrPhillip [5364] : Bravo
ommm [5] : we've
felt an amazing warmth of soul here, thank you all
ommm [5] : and don't
forget to check out the accompanying website
ommm [5] : which
is at www.mheim.com/av99
cuzminnie [20] : Shameless
Promo #2
ommm [5] : (shamelessly
promoed)
creator9 [135] : Bravo,
Bravo